How Nintendo Failed To Make The Game They Never Wanted

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I still think TP has the best combat system in Zelda. Between all of the unique enemies, the items you wield, and the sword skills you get, there are so many ways to fight a horde of enemies. I wish I could get something like TP move kit and enemy variety in BotW with its iterations on open world combat. It would be SO COOL! But no. We can't have nice things.

I don't have a problem with Zant breaking down into temper tantrums because his plans have just fallen apart and he pretty much knows that he is not leaving with his life. I wish there was more glimpses into his madness, but we learn at the start of the game that his ambitions for things denied to him because of his worldviews are the cause for is rebellion and title of Usurper King Zant. But it is not like Zelda has ever had proper lore or told a story that didn't contradict itself at every turn.

I love that I can watch several hours of critique on Twilight Princess, acknowledge its shortcomings and still love the game to pieces. It's so important to me so I love anyone talking about anything regarding it lol

Every game has its flaws but don’t see myself agree with some listed here. The story was amazing and left a lot to my imagination that many games fail to do

I've enjoyed your other videos, but this one is just bad. A lot of what you have going here is based off speculation, misinterpretation, and pedantic nitpicking. If you want to use your opinion to fuel a video, fine, but you seriously do not understand this game or what was going on with it.

Now forgive me, but this will be a lengthy response because there are a lot of details I want to address…

First off, the starting as a wolf thing was not the only starting idea. They also had the idea to have Link's wife and daughter kidnapped, this being an older Link (you can find concept art for him). This idea was chucked to the side, but they still needed something to get Link to wind up in the Twilight where he could meet Midna, so the kidnapping thing was reused and amped up. Colin is kidnapped again in order to force the Eldin Bridge sequence, no other reason.

It is not “the Triforce symbol” on Link’s hand that protects him and turns him into a wolf, It’s the Triforce of Courage. Twilight Princess is a direct follow-up to Ocarina of Time, and the three pieces of the Triforce are in the game, although never directly described as such. It’s why Zelda can exist as a human within the Twilight, it’s why Ganondorf can come back from the dead, and it’s why Link is not turned into either a spirit or a Shadow Beast in the Twilight.

It's pretty clear that the Twilight itself, that being Zant's Twilight, is evil. But the people living in the Twilight Realm itself aren't necessarily evil, including the people who live there. It isn’t a liminal space, it isn’t some poetic in-between….it’s a shoddy magic spell cast by a crazy guy that traps people as spirits. His motivations aren’t exactly known due to the hackney writing, but it probably was intended to have something to do with Ganondorf. The Hyruleans in the Twilight aren't "fine", they're stuck as spirits and can't leave the Twilight. The game directly says that they are trapped that way. The people themselves can't see the Twilight but can still sense that something is wrong, which is why they "live in fear".

The rules for the wolf are pretty simple. Link is able to transform back into a human after being turned into a wolf because of the concentration of light magic that surrounds the Light Spirits. What curses Link is not shadow, it’s darkness. It’s evil magic. Link never seems to actively use the Triforce of Courage, so he can’t just turn back into a human. That’s why he needs holy/light magic to do it, either in the form of a Light Spirit, or the Master Sword. Evil magic turns him into a beast, sacred magic turns him back into a young man.

Link continues to help Midna get the Fused Shadows because Zelda asks them for their help, but also Link does not know where Ilia is yet. She’s still a motivation for him to keep going. It’s not confusing. By the time he finds Ilia and brings her to where the other kids are in Kakariko, he’s found all of the fragments of the Fused Shadows and lifted all the Twilight, so that goal is accomplished.

Why hate on Link’s response to Colin? He’s agreeing with the injured kid in order to not upset him, and we all know that Link is not allowed to directly speak. He's an adult reassuring a child who just went through something horrific. Not only that, but I don't get how you gathered that Link is a flawless hero from this scene. Colin views Link as perfect because he's eight years old. Kids view things in pretty simplistic terms, so of course the big brother figure would seem cool and heroic to little Colin.

The Goron mines are not realistic. What are you talking about? In OoT, Link needed special gear to enter a volcano without dying, but TP Link just marches into the mines in the middle of Death Mountain without any issues. He would be dead in that very first room, if this was realistic.

People have explained why Lanayru’s warning, so I’m not going to do that. What I will say is that they had to use a more abstract cutscene to show what was a horrible, bloody war, something they simply would not put on screen in a family game. They intended to make it unsettling in a different manner, and I think they did that quite well. I find it hard to believe you didn’t understand any of the cut scene, and that you’re just nitpicking.

Snowpeak Ruins is not a family home, not in the traditional sense. It’s a castle, albeit a smaller one, which is why there are comfy living quarters, but also arsenals, canons and stone fortifications. So yes, a family may have lived here, but a very rich one, probably nobility.

You should know why Midna suddenly has the crazy power to blow up Zant like that, as well as destroy that barrier: she has the complete Fused Shadows. The thing the Interlopers made to conquer the Sacred Realm and steal the Triforce is now in her hands, and she’s mastered its power without being corrupted by it. And Zant is not being framed as being childish, he’s being framed as being crazy.

Midna destroys the mirror to prevent anything like this from happening again. The whole reason trouble came to the Twilght Realm in the first place was because Ganondorf was banished there, and then he and Zant came back through the mirror and invaded Hyrule. By shattering the mirror, Midna guarantees that if trouble happens in one kingdom, it can’t spill over into the other. It’s the action of a smart ruler, but also sticks with your theme of “respecting the other culture”. That theme is an odd interpretation, and feels out of place as a Zelda theme. There’s a light world and a dark world because that’s how it was in Link to the Past, Aonuma’s favorite game in the series. That’s it. There’s nothing more to it than that. Anything else you’ve said on the subject is just a personal theory of yours.

I believe the game is about personal growth, specifically Midna's because it's her story. She initially only cares about her own isolated kingdom and herself. She's selfish, but eventually learns how to care about people other than herself, and placed other than her home. This isn't learning about a different society, but more of "Damn, you guys got screwed by Zant too.". Shattering the mirror to protect the two realms is the opposite of selfishness, because she sets aside her own desires for the better good of all.

But as far as fixing the narrative? It's doable. I wrote a fix-it fic series of books. 1.2 million words. Go look it up on Ao3. What it requires is fewer plot points based off game mechanics, more focus on the invasion by Zant, or the fact that the transformation of the Hylians into Shadow Beasts is like the zombie apocalypse (it’s why Kakariko is empty!), and fixes to the dumb plot holes. Your theories on what the game’s themes are, what things were intended to be and what you feel would fix the game feel a lot more like fanfiction than the thousands of words I’ve written.

And for the love of god, do not let Aonuma stick to his creative vision. That’s how we get tripe like Tears of the Kingdom.

Aonuma didn't want to make it. Not all of Nintendo

I agree with you on a number of points, but there are a couple details you got false. The "3 light spirits intervening" is not incorrect. Ordon and its Light Spirit is specifically outside of Hyrule. The conflict Lanayru is describing is within Hyrule- hence yes, there are only 3 Light Spirits of Hyrule that were sent to intervene- not 4. And then the second thing that stuck out to me, is that Midna killing Zant is specifically shown to be because she just obtained the fused shadows back from him. You framed it as if she randomly got tentacle power and nothing was explained, but that's not the case: "I used just a fraction of the power that's in me now. I did THAT using only a fraction of my ancestors' magic?!" after she takes the pieces back. Besides that, I found it to be an interesting video. I didn't agree with everything, BUT… one of my biggest problems personally was how Ganondorf was handled as a villain. It's no wonder they put his character on the shelf for awhile after this game. Timeline-wise and being a spiritual successor to OoT, I get why he's in it, but he was included very poorly.

In the version where the twilight world is the after life and In a pre skyward sword world where Ganondorf was the recurring villain and not a curse, he works better as a villain for twilight princess as the antithesis to moving on. He will not change, he will not stop, he refused to die so he was sealed in the underworld. He overthrew the underworld at the chance to escape, absolute refusal to become a part of the past. Even if he's truly dead at the end, as a spirit he would surely try again and again and again to escape, and Midna knows that now. She has grown so fond of the light world by the end that she gives it up, she can't risk Ganondorf ever using the mirror as a means of escape knowing at least she'll see them again some day.

I think that Link was always supposed to be a hero [BOTW style], not grow into a hero, but instead it is a journey of Link understanding just what he is defending, and understanding that being a hero means helping those who need it regardless and living for what is right regardless of where you came from. This is a lesson for Midna as well. It is not about accepting that other cultures are [also] good. It's about accepting that all cultures do evil [even ours]. And with that shattering the mirror makes perfect sense.

This video feels like a breath of fresh air. It's not that I think TP is a bad game or enjoy seeing it picked apart, but recent discourse around TotK's story had really glorified the previous games' narratives in a very inaccurate, rose tinted way. TP's overall plot is compelling, but it's also riddled with plotholes, strange decisions, and a mess of thematic directions. The same could be said of TotK. And many others in the series too, but people tend to only remember the highlights for older games.

If Majora's Mask was made today people would praise its side stories and themes but the actual plot is indistinguishable from TotK's regional phenomenon (and they'd probably complain about only getting 4 dungeons too). If Ocarina was made today people would bemoan the plotholes and inconsistencies with how the time travel works (sometimes it's a closed loop, other times it's not) and the lack of lore on things like the titular Ocarina.

Point being, it's rare to see someone apply to the older games the same critical lens we all turn on the newer ones.

This is just me and my humble onion, obviously, but I find that Ganondorf's inclusion really drags the game down. It feels similar to FNAF: SB going "look! Afton!!!" rather than accepting a new villain and having different themes with that villain rather than going "oh yeah and then Ganondorf was behind him." It always felt like a cheap grab to me and more like fanservice than an actual inclusion.

I hate how they flanderized Postman. They killed my boy.

The Twilight Rome.

Lore of How Nintendo Failed To Make The Game They Never Wanted To Make. Momentum 100

I guess I'm good to play the GCN version again.

YEAAAAAAAH CEAVE PERSPECTIVE (havent watched the video yet im just always hyped for a new ceave video)

I thoroughly enjoy all of Ceave's videos and this one was no exception – though this was the first one that I found myself confused and disagreeing with nearly every point.
I feel vindicated that after reading some other comments, I'm clearly not the only one that felt this way.

A lot of the criticisms here come down to misinterpreting characters and text, reading too far into things which were never meant to be taken at face-value, overthinking themes and trying to bend the story and events of the game to fit into those theoretical themes. Some literal events were assumed to be metaphorical and some metaphorical things were interpreted literally.

The discussion on sales figures was also misinformed, I think – you can't simply take the install base divided by the number of units sold (the attach rate) and use that to determine a game's absolute success compared to another. The time at which each of the games came out relative to their console's release date and the demographic of the install base, as well as the financial climate and other variables make it far more difficult to compare than is suggested in the video. It comes off as an attempt to justify thinking Wind Waker is somehow the better and more successful of the two games, which I don't think was the intention but it definitely left that impression.

One thing you're missing from the conspiracy board is the SpaceWorld 2000 tech demo. Back in '99, Nintendo was losing to the Dreamcast and the Playstation– the majority of gamers were interested in more powerful graphics these consoles brought over the N64. Nintendo thus does a hail mary with the Gamecube and the SpaceWorld 2000 demo showing updated models of OOT Adult Link and Ganondorf having a duel in a ruined castle.

This demo was what the Western world had as preview for the new Zelda game. Speculation ran wild over a Zelda OOT sequel with a mature Link, with Ganon returning, with complex combat, with competing graphics. A different sequel from Majora's Mask following the fallen adult timeline instead of the happy ending we got in OOT. Then, two years later after rumors and real no official information, we all of a sudden get Wind Waker. A bright, bubbly, young Link in new world with nothing to do with the Hyrule from OOT. A new Zelda for the Gamecube and a complete disappointment in the eyes of the Western audience after years of build up.

This is why Wind Waker was a failure. At face it appeared to be the complete opposite of everything that was promised by the tech demo. People wanted a mature Link building upon the themes of Majora's Mask set after OOT… not "baby's first adventure game." This is why Wind Waker 2 was dropped for Twilight Princess. It was a complete heel turn because the sales data was really the first time the Japanese developers had any idea what the Western community was hyping up. The Japanese developers weren't even aware the SpaceWorld tech demo was shown. Nintendo basically put out fires by saying Wind Waker wasn't the sequel, there was yet another Zelda game coming, the one the Western audience wanted; it just wasn't ready yet. It will launch with the Wii.

Twilight Princess HAD to be a success. Nintendo couldn't risk a second disappointment after five years of hyping it up at this point. More writers. More staff. More resources in the new hardware! Shove everything at the game! Doesn't matter if it was already in the oven, put more cooks in the kitchen!

Worst art direction? My opinion it’s the best. When I played Zelda on NES and SNES my imagination pictured it like Twilight Princess. The first time I played it I thought wow, they finally captured Zelda how it is supposed to be. Like seriously how can you say Skyward Sword has a better art direction?

Ah, so that's why Twilight Princess was my favorite Zelda for some time: It's a hot mess with some real great unrealized potential. I really seem to gravitate toward stuff like that. Breath of Fire 2, StarFox, the SaGa games, etc.

I would say the mirror being destroyed is not a contradiction of themes – you are reaching with that.
Midna destroyed it because of the danger the Light & the Twilight pose to each other.
* Midna's realm was ravaged because Ganondorf was imprisoned there, enabling Zant (and likely wasn't the first criminal who tormented the Twili).
* Zelda's realm was ravaged by Zant, the enslaved Twili, and Ganondorf.

It is a way of protecting the two realms (though, perhaps, the mirror isn't needed to reach the Twilight Realm. At Dawn & Dusk, the two could still cross between each other, but only if BOTH the Light & the Twilight want any such person to traverse between the realms. Think like Spirited Away).

Eh, I'm too attached to Midna for her to be tossed at the end. Bitter sweet does have its place in Zelda yet the entire history of the Twili is being banished. Millennia of penance has followed. Saying they must forever more be in a lesser realm reflects poorly on the goddesses and the handling of their creations.
I always pictured Twilight as a new home where these wayward children could sort their shit away from the temptation of power. Its only at the very end that the game turns away from possible healing to say nah, you're bad forever. A plot that could fix this needs a lot of new elements and could make use of a land of shadow but twilight should exist in the thin film between light and dark. A place not new yet repurposed to give the Twili a home. Then you could have Ganon cause ruckus as he claws his way back to Hyrule. More nuanced thematic beats take more thought than this comment deserves. Maybe have Zelda take Ilia's role with Link being a wolf pup she met as a child, then for the sake of all she does her sacrifice thing for Midna, but stays dead this time. Could go a lot of fun directions.